Eric's thoughts

Point well taken, it is like a chicken before the egg thing. I guess my problem lies in the fact that people can sit under some deep teaching, such as "love your enemies" (which I don't know about you, but I haven't even come close to getting that one down yet) and claim that it isn't deep because they already know it.

>It may spur someone to ask, "How do I love my enemies?" "Why should I love my enemies?" "What good will come from loving my enemies?" "I will pray and ask God to help me love my enemies."

You make such a great point-asking those questions leads to a deeper understanding or at least a desire for one. Whereas some people stop right there and say, "Love my enemies, I already know I'm supposed to do that." "Or I can't do that." Possibly closing the book on the next revelation God was going to reveal.

I also understand your point about service because some people serve out of the necessity to serve, not necessarily seeing any growth because the service is with the wrong motive. Yet others start serving with the wrong motive and find themselves falling deeper in love with the people they serve and thus feeling the same way God does about people which has lead them to fall deeper in love with God.

I guess my point is that it has to work hand and hand, the revelation and application, no matter what order they occur in.

Is it then a subjective thing or can one follow a plan in having a deep relationship with God?

> I think deep lies with in the application, though.

This is tough. It's a chicken and egg problem. Is it the revelation which spurs us on to application? Or is it in the application which brings on revelation? My personal feeling is the first one.

I'm not necessarily talking about simply understanding/knowledge but rather revelation or a supernatural knowledge. It is this supernatural revelation which draws ME deeper. I agree the doing part is important and necessary, but is it the act of doing or the revelation we receive by doing it which draws us deeper?

> I know that Jesus says to love my enemies----
> is knowing that deep?

For somebody who believes in revenge, then, yes, I believe the words 'love my enemies' may be deep if the Holy Spirit reveals a new truth. It may spur someone to ask, "How do I love my enemies?" "Why should I love my enemies?" "What good will come from loving my enemies?" "I will pray and ask God to help me love my enemies." But I agree, simply acknowledging the words does not mean much if it is not followed by action or a change of heart.

When we are moved to action by revelation of our heart, soul, and mind, then we grow deeper. I can acknowledge the words "love my enemy", I can go around doing kind things to those who hate me, but if not done with a heart attitude, I will not grow deeper. It is not the actual application which causes us to grow deeper, but rather hearing and acknowledging God's voice during the application. This, in turn, spurs us on to continue. It's a continual pattern of growth/deeper->apply->growth/deeper->apply.

James makes it clear our faith will cause us to follow with action. (My own loose interpretation.) You can't have one without the other. I try to encourage people to serve in the church because it can be an immense spiritual blessing and a great impact on our faith. But serving simply for serving's sake is not the best way to growth. It's when Christ reveals Himself to us in our serving which causes the real growth.

I guess I see the revelation as the part where I grow deeper and become more Christ-like. I feel the action/application (prayer, worship, loving my enemy) is a catalyst which allows the Holy Spirit to reveal new things and to continually mold me into becoming more Christ-like. I turn this around into further application, which helps me grow deeper, which furthers application...

I think many people feel the same SSquared. To understand God at a new level, that's deep, and I certainly agree.

I've had similar experiences with Scripture in which God speaks to me through a verse that I had read many times before.

I think deep lies with in the application, though. In other words, I know that Jesus says to love my enemies----is knowing that deep? Or does the deep realtionship come about when I am actually becoming one that loves his enemies, and thus becoming more like Christ, and feeling the same way he does about people.

I think the mistake we make is making it all about understanding and less about becoming.

But I'm just searching this as many of you are. What do you think?

Wow! That's deep, man. :-)

That's a good question. I've never really thought about it before. When I think of "going deeper", I think of what it means to ME.

When I hear the Delirious song and sing "I want to go deeper", the first things which come to my mind are to understand Christ at a new level. I want to know and understand more about His love for us, and what He truly did for us on the cross.

I think we can get there through all of the above. Prayer, reading the Bible, a preacher, a teacher, worship, praising Him throughout the day...you just never know what phrase, saying, or verse may jump out at you and bring you to a deeper understanding of God and Christ.

I do agree retreats take me much deeper, and they usually have a life-changing impact on my walk with Christ.

Something being deep is completely relative. I agree, what some say is deep, others feel is shallow or not very impactful. What is the reasoning behind this? I don't really know. I don't know about you, but in my own life, I can sing a worship song over and over, or read a verse a hundred times, but that 101st time it suddenly jumps out at me and everything sort of comes together. What did I miss those 100 other times? Same words each time.