Jon Green

Paul, I have read the same book and thought it was quite good. Gave me lots of helpful insights I had never thought of before. It also helped me understand some of my more evangelistically gifted peers.

Here are some examples of how I have attempted to bridge the gap.

Several years ago, I had actually started writing an article on this very subject for a Christian Computer Gaming Review site of which I am a member/administrator. I never finished the article. The site itself is open to non-believers, which leads me to my first example. We had an extremely successful Christian/Religion discussion area which included a Wiccan, an Asatru, and an atheist. Although the site is geared to Christian-oriented game reviews, we accepted all faiths as long as they were not offensive and had civil discussions. It was a terrific time of growth for me. Their questions forced me to dig DEEP into studying the bible. It drew me closer to God, while at the same time, gave the non-believers thoughts to ponder. It also gave me a better understanding of these other thoughts of view. My relationships with these folks was strong enough, when they decided to leave the site, it was hard to say goodbye.

I felt this was a terrific minstry for me and the others who participated. In the end, none of them ever accepted Christ, but one of them recently popped his head in and I found out he is no longer a Wiccan. There was another EXTREMELY bitter user who said some pretty hateful things to us. We showed him grace and a few months later he came back and apologized for his outbursts. Imagine if we had just cut off his account or attacked him right back?

Back to that article. It is actually called "Bridging the Gap with Computer Gaming". It was an article of how I used an interest for playing computer games to create relationships with non-believers. I was able to strike up conversations with people I would have NEVER conversed with. People who go to topless bars, drink, and are heavy trashy talkers. Through our common interest in gaming, I actually ended up really liking these guys. I was even able to discuss music with one of the guys. Through lots of prayer and their knowledge of my faith, their talk/conversation definitely took a nose dive. It was pretty amazing! And I don't even think they realized it.

I have several other examples, which may see the light of day if I ever finish the article. I am no longer involved with computer games, so there is less of a desire to finish the article. Perhaps I can change the scope of teh article to encompass a general notion of "How do we Brdige the Gap to Non-Believers?"

Here are a few thoughts. Examine your own interests and hobbies. Is there any cross-section of interests between you and the other person? Can you talk about a movie you have seen. Or a genre of movies you like. Also, don't be afraid of differing opinions. Learn from them and state why you may see things differently.

I, too, used to be so caught up in my Christian world, it was really difficult to associate with anyone else. But after having returned from a short-term mission trip, I think that's when everything changed. I realized we are called as Ambassadors of Christ no matter where we are. We have a needy field right where we are at. God has specifically placed people into each one of our lives because he knows we can become an influence (whether big or small) on that other person's life.

Try not to have an attitude that it is your job to make someone a beliver. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. What a terrific weight gets lifted if we just focus on showing Christ to others. Perhaps through love and grace, someone may see Christ. They may see something special in you they have never seen in anyone else. It can be as simple as, "Wow! This person really is interested in my deep interests and desires." I sort of think of the movie "Mr. Holland's Opus". Mr. Holland did not realize the incredible impact he played in the children's lives. I think it's the same for us as Christians.

Paul, you totally have it right. I think prayer is key. It changes our attitudes and perspectives on the subject and can also change it for the ones we are trying to reach. It's neat to hear the baby steps. I can relate to the going deeper fear.

Sorry everyone. I do tend to write a lot. I just go and go and go. I'll call it quits now.

Tracy, I can totally relate. I heard a quote this past week that, "after two years of believing, the average Christian has no non-believing friends." How are we to be salt and light in the world if this is the average Christian? I fit that average mold for the past 7 years. I realized it the whole time that I did not have any friends who did not know Christ. But I didn't know how to go about making friends with people who were so different than myself.

I recently read the book: Becoming a Contagious Christian by Bill Hybels. It helped me to see some very practical ways to get involved in non-believer's lives. It was simple: Commit to pray for a couple people you know (co-workers, neighbors, family etc.) and then trust God to open doors.

After praying I have found myself being more concerned about people knowing the truth of Jesus Christ. And God has totally opened doors for me to make friendships and have deep conversations with two of the three people I have been praying for. It is sometimes very uncomfortable and many times I chicken out of going deeper. But I gradually sense God nudging me to go deeper. These are baby steps for me, but compared to where I was a year ago, God has done a great work in my life in this area.

If anyone has other ways you have bridged the cultural gap with people who do not believe the same as we do, please share as that is how we will all learn.

Tracy, I bet many of us feel the same way. Even those of us who work outside of the church. Christ is my life. My faith encompasses my daily thoughts and actions. My activities revolve around Christians.

On the other hand, I also think we have more oppotunities than we realize. Someone with the gift of evangelism will tell us "every person you see is a witnessing opportunity." I have known people who will talk about Christ to the movie ticket taker, or to the grocery checker, or anyone else who comes into their sphere.

I'll admit. That freaks me out. I shudder at the thought of doing that. I have chosen the path I stated earlier. I get to know those around me on a personal level first. I also use the saying "my actions will demonstrate Christ to others". For example, a co-worker asked me just today if I watched the series "Enterprise". I told him I had wanted to, but when I read reviews and saw previews which were clearly focused on sex, I decided not to watch it. His response surprised me, as he admited my statement was true. He continued to tell me how they calmed down on it later in the series. In any case, I told him my reasons and perhaps he is rethinking things himself or asking himself why someone wouldn't watch the show just for that reason.

For me, I also sometimes struggle with how I deal with things. I tend to think of myself as just one point of reference in someone's path to Christ. Am I wimping out? Am I taking the long way?

Oooops. I don't think what I wrote has anything to do with this thread. But Tracy's message kind of made me think of all this.

Back to the main topic...

My feeling is we relate the Good News of Christ differently to each individual. To one person, He may release the chains of addiction. To another, He is the Healer of sickness. And another, He is the Provider. One reason I can have joy in low times is because it gives me an opportunity to share what Christ did during that low period of life. I figure God may be allowing me to go through something, because He knows someone with the same problem may someday enter into my life.

I recall a peer (one of those described above who has no fear in telling strangers about Christ) giving a presentation on "The 2-Minute Testimony". One of the key points in introducing your testimony is to find a common issue which leads into the testimony. For example, "Yeah, I used to be afraid with that too. Would you like to hear what I did to overcome my fears?" If they say YES, then you go into your 2-minute testimony.

Jon -- First, I realize we could finish this conversation across a cubicle, but I'm writing here in hopes that others would be willing to offer their thoughts, too!

How I relate the good news of who Jesus is with our culture is what I struggle with daily. I work with a bunch of Christians, meet regularly outside of work with a bunch of Christians, and generally associate with Christians on a daily basis. Yikes!! I need to get out more -- especially in Eugene/Springfield! So, for me, I am faced with the need to intentionally broaden my relationships if I am to truly contribute. Sometimes I feel way too safe. Dang, that's kinda embarassing to admit...

> Does the way we try to communicate faith in Christ differ from culture to culture?

> How would you best relate the gospel to the people around you?

My thoughts are we not only need to relate Christ differently to each culture, but to each individual as well. For example, show a photo to some tribal people, and it just does not make any sense. They live in a 3D world and can not relate to a 2D picture.

Musically, I am drawn closer to Christ through Praise & Worship music. For my wife, it is the lyrics from Contemporary Christian groups.

I'm not quite sure how I would best relate the gospel to those around me. And I think what may work for one person, will not work for someone else. My goals are to form relationships with those around me based on common interests. To one person, I discuss music. To another, photography. And to someone else, possibly computer stuff. From there, I just pray for the Holy Spirit to give me wisdom and opportunities to share the Gospel.

Jon, that cleared things up. It's what I figured, but I like to really understand what someone is trying to say before I jump to conclusions.

I agree with you...

I like the way you worded this: "nonchristians can relate to as well". As Christians, we should try to bring Christ to non-Christians. So often, Christians relate too much to the things of the world.

I'm not sure there is any tangible way of describing how to do this. My point is we need to have such a faith, all we do exudes the love of Christ. People can't help but feel the Spirit's touch when they hear a song. Read a book. See a photo.

Anyone ever seen Phil Driscoll? His trumpet playing is Spirit-filled and you can't help but weep at times.

I wonder to what extent, particularly in the arts world, "Christian" has become a marketing buzz word much like "scientifically research based" has become a buzz phrase in the education industry or "flavor crystals" in gum.

A quick Google search turned up this article..
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_21/b3934018_mz001.htm
titled: "The Fashion of the Christ". It's a year old, but probably still relevant.

So now "Christian" is a brand. A big brand with a growing market share. To address this topic...does this represent participation in the culture? Which cultural value does it represent? Is this the way Jesus wants it done? If the market share is growing, does that mean the medium is winning individuals for Christ or that the message has been watered down so that it's easier to sell?

I have to admit that I like a lot of contemporary Christian music. I really do. Music is probably the reason I came back to Grace after my first visit (actually...I KNOW it's the reason I came back and that means it's the reason my family is now also there). Knowing that it can be that powerful, is it possible to sell it as a brand (as the large corporations mentioned in the article certainly do) but not spoil the message?

Too many questions...sorry!

ss,

what i was trying to convey is that often "christian art" is not very christian and not very artistic. many times christians are just trying to make a cleaned up version of something already out there. also, we get in this cycle of thinking that by making "christian" art[songs,books] we will reach non-christians. while this actually happens from time to time[i.e. purpose driven life], the vast majority of participants in the "christian" arts are christians. that being true, we just perpetuate a 21st century form of asceticism by isolating ourselves from the rest of the world. so my thought is that christian artists should do everything they can to produce creative, individual, and expressive art[songs,poems,books] that nonchristians can relate to as well.

does that clarify the issue, or just complicate it?

tracy,

i don't think i could pretend to know exactly how...hence the discussion. however, i do know that the first question was intended to be a little bit of a tease. i think rob was right on in saying that we cannot not be affected in some ways by the culture around us. so the real question is WHAT is it that christians have to offer to society, and HOW do we offer that?

i think everyone here agrees that we as christians really have one thing that is unique to us...the Gospel. How that is brought to bear on our culture? I think that's what you're asking, and i don't really have an answer for you. For me, it's in the world of the arts. so, we end up with references on this post to christian music and c.s. lewis, but how every christian participates in culture is too general. How would you best relate the gospel to the people around you?

I agree with you all that the one unique thing we can offer is faith in Christ and the life changing message it brings. This offering seems to be the one thing that transcends all cultures. However, I had to go back and look at your original question again ["What does it really mean to be a part of the culture around us, to positively contribute to the world, and yet not be affected by the things 'out there?'"] to try and wrap my mind around what I was getting at in my first post. I believe it is this: I struggle with the "how" part of this question. Jon, your last paragraph began to describe some ways, but I guess I am hoping for more discussion on the "how." How do we take these theoretical ideas and apply them in our lives today? Does the way we try to communicate faith in Christ differ from culture to culture?

I await enlightenment from you all... :)

(I have had this sitting around for awhile, but had not sent it. Now I noticed this dialog has picked up again, so I decided to send this off. Many new ideas/thoughts/questions have come up, so some of what I wrote may no longer be relevant. Sorry if this seems disjointed, but I may not really be done with my thoughts. I figure since so many new questions came up, I want to write some new thoughts, so I'll just post what I current have written.)

I think it's been shown (above) we can't help but be effected by our culture. It effects our thoughts, desires, and actions. It should also effect how we relate Christ to any given culture. Read Don Richardson's "Peace Child" for a terrific look on the importance of teaching about Christ in relation to the culture.

Anyway, since I believe we agree on that part of the original question, I'm assuming the question has morphed into "what can Christians offer the world which is UNIQUELY Christian?" I'm still a little confused on the real question being asked, or what Jon is really asking.

Jon, I am unsure what you mean with: "rather than genuine artistry[that's not to say that christian music is bad in its idea, just not very creative]" I am trying to understand if you are relating 'genuine artistry' and being 'creative' as something uniquely Christian. Or if you are saying, as Christians, we should excel in what we do by driving creativity. I assume it's the latter, but still does not seem like anything unique to me.

I have been involved in the arts for many, many years. Similar questions arise quite often. We often discuss "what makes something Christian?" Books, songs, telephones, computers, or even churches are not uniquely Christian. Is it the author being a Christian? Is it the Christian-related topic?

What I think we CAN uniquely offer is a faith in Christ. Through faith, and through the Holy Spirit, we can accomplish great things to draw people to Christ. So often I feel in the Western World, we place God in a box. We decide what He is capable of doing. Let's not forget, "The same Spirit which raised Christ is within us today!!!" The Bible says "God is able to move mountains." I haven't literally seen this, but I have seen people and heard many stories of the hardest hearts turning their lives to Christ. What we can offer is hope, life, and faith in Christ.

i think that I understand what is being said. however, i have two questions:

1. what's the difference between "contributing to culture" and "being a part of culture?" it would seem to me that culture is not some static "thing" but instead a fluid amalgom of collective individuals. therefore the very moment you "contribute" something, you are a part of the culture around you.

2. what does it look like for us to "learn the language" of our culture if we are already a part of that culture? I think we have to be careful not to create an us/them paradigm. it's one thing if i am a missionary going to india, to learn a different language and culture. but what about when i am in eugene and i am then a product of and contributor to the language and culture?

i think that i agree with tom the most, that our one contribution to the world that is uniquely Christian is the Gospel. We are most able to affect culture by bringing Christ's love and letting that bear itself out in our lives. Doing that may put us at the mercy of images that disturb us( such as sick people dying and we can't help them, or being caught in the midst of horrible violence), images that make the movies look like what they are...fantasy.

as for the arts, it is my opinion that christian artists should strive to make "good" [art,music,literature]and not "christian" arts. for what it's worth.

Hmmmmm...I must admit I have enjoyed reading this thread and have come away with more questions than conclusions. So, here is my $.02 to the conversation (good question, Jon). It seems, in general, we are talking about two different issues: 1) contributing to culture, and 2) being a part of culture. I recognize that the posts above cover way more in-depth discussion than these two categories, but it seems these capture the gist of what we are talking about. That said, I agree, it would be nice to see more original Christian contributions to our culture. However, to be honest, I am not sure what that would look like from my perspective. More C.S. Lewis's? More Max Lucado's? More U2's? More Thomas Kincade's? I don't know. I probably would struggle at telling you if any of those truly fall into an "original, creative, Christian contribution" to culture. If one is looking at the topic from an art and literature point of view, I am not the expert to provide comment. But, the topic does interest me to know what is being created that is identified as uniquely Christian. So, I know it's important, I just don't know how to engage it well.

Anyway, category #2: being a part of culture. I like Tom's analogy and Rob's follow up extension of it. But I wonder, how can we *not* "drink the water?" Where does that magical line exist between knowing about culture and being influenced by culture? How am I supposed to be in the world but not of the world in practical terms? In other words, how do I back in to the elephant watering hole (culture) without drinking the water? I am not sure one can. For example, does that mean I never go see a rated-R movie? How am I suppose to learn about culture without experiencing part of it? And what about Col. 3:2, 1 Cor. 6:19, and Rom. 12:2? And if I believe I can see a rated-R movie, then why not an X movie? Or XX? I don't know for sure. But it seems there is some point in there where knowledge and influence meet. Let's stick with movies for a second. I know I don't need to see every rated-R movie to get the idea of what takes place. In actuallity, the content of rated-R movies is not good for me. On the other hand, several rated-R movies have wonderful messages that reflect themes in our culture. For me, I enjoy watching those kind of movies. This usually means I need to be careful about which parts I end up watching, too. Those questionable movie scenes is where the influence of culture meets me in real life. I want to understand the tensions and realities we face in our culture, but I also do not want to fill my mind with images that don't help me. These images just don't draw me closer to Christ-like living as I try to understand our culture. I hope that makes sense.

So, if we all are indeed missionaries to whatever culture we are in, then we need to do a fair bit of learning about that culture upfront. In Young Life training they call that earning the right to be heard. I am all for earning the right, but I try to be careful balancing where I let experiences cross over from knowledge to influence.

I guess that was a bit more than $.02.

I like the elephant herd analogy (and not just because I have a big schnoz). To take it one step further...we need to "back in" but be careful and DON'T DRINK THE WATER. That's the toughest part...contribution without capture (or REcapture as the case may be).

Or another take on culture and our influence: Missionary Don Larson tells of learning how a herd of elephants approaches a water-hole when another herd is already there. The lead elephant in the approaching herd turns around and backs down to the water-hole. When two of the elephants surrounding the water-hole feel the backside of the approaching elephant, they scoot over to make room. Once the leader is accepted, the remainder of the approaching herd is allowed into the circle. What's the point? Missionaries have become aware that they haven't been "backing in" to new cultures! They're learning to come in as learners, not as teachers. They need to learn language, customs, relationships. So again, what's the point for us today right here in hometown USA? We as Christians need to "back into" the cultures around us. No longer can we come throwing stones of accusation and judgment, or with the attitude that we're going to teach something to others. We need to be asking questions, learning the language, understanding the hearts of the people with whom we eventually want to share our hope and joy. We need to realize that we do indeed come from another culture than most of those around us. In fact, it's getting to be that we're coming from a different world, which is almost biblical. Except our world, too, is filled with sin and hypocrisy and hurt and pain. We just have different ways of hiding it or excusing it. We're all down in the mud together, but sometimes the other "cultures" around us seem so strange and "obviously" sinful that we think we're clean compared to them. And we are so wrong! Enuf for now. tb

I think we might contribute to the world by putting God first and then our families; by being humble when our peers are proud; by caring for the hurting when the crowds are chasing the latest TV or movie star; by choosing to share our material possessions; by offering to pray for people in tough spots. That guy who stopped slavery in London, Wilberforce? -- I don't think he was into power or prestige. I think he just realized that something was wrong and had to be fixed. As we live lives anchored in Christ, we might have to take big public stands sometimes, but I think more likely it's going to be our small, daily, unnoticed attitudes and activities that affect the microculture around us.

I have a very close friend who has a very deep family history in church and who's bible knowledge constantly amazes me (although she's not much of a show off). She's often posed the question, "Why aren't Christians making more of an intellectual contribution anymore?" She's often frustrated that Christianity has become, in her view, associated with vacuousness and smarminess (or blanket disapproval). Considering the Christians I've had the opportunity to speak with (the folks at GCF and her come to mind), I'm forced to wonder if there really is such a perception and if so, how in the heck that happened? Most, no ALL, of the Christians I know are SMART!

I really like your question because it's so challenging. Offering something other than "Christian perspective" involves a lot of risk, but then again, so does becoming a Christian in the first place. I'm trying to think of Christians who HAVE made a positive contribution in the last, say, century (because there are fewer and fewer it seems) and contrast their works with Christians who have contributed, but not in a necessarily original or unique way. Again, my inexperience and Christian juvenescence make this a more difficult exercise for me than others, so please forgive conspicous omissions (there's bound to be lots):

Examples of Contributors: C.S. Lewis, Max Lucado...ummmm, boy, I need to read more (and listen to more, and watch more...)

Examples of nonContributors: I wish I could think of someone, but I can't. Using your example above, mainstream Christian pop musicians/bands seems the best choice, that way it's not a personal attack.

There aren't necessarily enough examples above to really identify too many common characteristics to compare and contrast. One thing that does come to mind, though, is that both the contributors were willing to take risks...those guys really layed it out there (or still do). It seems to me that they even exposed themselves to potential criticism from other Christians whereas the copycat music set is taking a pretty safe road to making sure their record labels stay in business. This tack doesn't necessarily question their faith (who am I ever to do that?) but it does acknowledge that their tolerance for risk may be lower than those folks who are willing (and we've got to mention ABLE) to make a truly original contribution.

Geez, all that and still not even close to an answer to "what do we have to contribute that is uniquely Christian?". I'm gonna talk it over with my friend and see what she says...GREAT question.

rob, i think you're right in saying that we cannot remain unaffected by our culture, and that we are ultimatley influenced by culture as much as we contribute to it.

positive contribution- i have been thinking a lot about this topic lately. it seems to me that many christians are negatively involved in culture. by that i mean that many of us simply offer commentary on what others are doing within the culture. rather than being contributors to the culture and offering something uniquley christian to the culture at large, we often slip into a pattern of simply approving or disapproving; or we copy what is already existing in the culture often times doing so behind the movement of the cultural elements we are seeking to copy.(i.e. many christian musicians simply seek to mimic what is popular such as u2, the christian music market offers "possitive alternatives" or more rightly "christian copies" rather than genuine artistry[that's not to say that christian music is bad in its idea, just not very creative...then again that's a whole different topic])

so i guess my question from this is what do we have to CONTRIBUTE that is uniquely christian, rather than just offering "christian perspective" on things that already are "out there" in the culture? does that even make sense?

and why aren't more people responding to these blogs?

Going out on a limb as I've got so little knowledge it's scary (as a little knowledge often can be)...

I read your previous entry and this question seems to me to be directly related. Actually, it also (to me, at least) seems to tie in well with Steve's discussion on how Christians are often viewed as intolerant.

We can't help but to be involved in the culture around us...all of our choices are defined by the context provided by that culture. If we choose to deny the values of the popular culture, our very denial is based on what that culture represents. If we choose to adopt those values, again we're being defined by our agreement. As Christians, we often try to view our choices as totally separate from "the world" or popular culture when to an unbiased observer (as if there were any) those choices would have everything to do with the contemporary circumstances in which they're made.

Our denial of participation or our visible rejection of the values that define our culture today is likely (or even probably) seen by those who accept those values as intolerant. That's because when we reject people's values, they (reasonably) equate that with our rejection of THEM as people. That's counter to our mission, but how to explain that to someone who doesn't understand the mission? Thinking further along those lines...do we assume that society in general rejects OUR values, thereby rejecting US personally? Is that why we assume they view us as intolerant? If we do make that assumption, how can we complete our task?

Like you mentioned in your last post, we can't insulate ourselves from the culture and hope to complete our mission. If Jesus had only associated with those folks who had the same values and beliefs and behaviors as himself, well, we wouldn't be here because nobody would ever have met him. He became part of the culture around him because that's where he was needed. That's also our mission (as I understand it...and I'm only going on the authority of those smarter than myself).

If we agree (and I'm not necessarily making the assumption that we do or don't) that we can only positively contribute to the world if we acknowledge our presence in it, the last part of your question "...and yet not be affected by the things out there?" becomes the hardest one for me to reason out. I'm going to go way out on a limb (assuming I'm not there already) and say we're not supposed to be unaffected. If we could be unaffected, we wouldn't be human.

I hope that no matter how firm we are in our faith that we always remain profoundly affected by the culture around us. For me anyway, it's the one thing that continually reminds me that I can't do this alone...I need His help.

hey deanna,

i am giving it a few days to see what other people have to say before i voice my own opinion. i really would like to see some open input rather than people responding to what i have to say. that may not work, but i want to give it a shot anyway:)

Jon...great question..perhaps you could share your own personal response?