Jon Green

Food for thought: If we played Mighty Oregon (Oregon Ducks fight song) on a Sunday morning, how many people would just go nuts and cheer and celebrate a victory from the previous game on Saturday??

My guess... More than would cheer after a good worship song I would think. I am pretty sure I would be guilty of that.

Basically, I think its socially acceptable to get hyped about sports in our culture, but not God. Too Bad I think.

-Colin

I think i would agree for the most part. Let me ask you this though.

do you think it's awkward that Christians typically only come to God with our guilt and shame and conviction? that we reserve our joy and parties and celebration for things like birthdays, parties, sports events, concerts, new years eve, etc.?

i think it seems a little wierd. we do all these joyful things in life(despite pain) and yet we come to god all gloomy and we teach that real joy means you can still be sad. when i've seen people dying of cancer at a rock concert in the moshpit, totally committed to celebrating their love for that band.

What do I think the bible says joy is?
That's a great question that I've sat here for a while and tried to answer. To no avail. I don't know if I can adequately say what it is. It seems like I can more easily just say what it isn't.

If I were going to take a stab I'd say something like:
A comfort/eagerness/desire that comes from knowing the truth.
(pretty lame attempt, I couldn't think of one word that covers comfort, eager, and desire)

The funny thing is, there is joy right in the middle of the painful truth. Understanding something bad about myself that I didn't know before is often painful, but at the same time I really do feel joy about it. Because I want to know the truth, about me, God, you, etc.
But in that moment I wouldn't say that I'd feel like dancing about it.

By the way, I came accross this in 2 Corinthians 7 (or somewhere around there) I think it speaks to our conversation about sometimes being 'self centered' in focusing on our problems. You'll have to get the context, but I think it is confirming what you said.

10For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

One last thing. From my perspective I would prefer that whatever teaching I hear is consistent with the reality of life. Any (ongoing) teaching that only focuses on the pain and suffering about this life would be lacking. Likewise any teaching that only focuses on the good qualities about us, or this life would be just as lacking.

If I had to choose to water one down. I would water down the happy/dancing thing. Because I'm convinced that people need to understand the gospel... and if you don't understand the bad news, then the good news doesn't make any sense.

I think I see what you're saying. What would you say that the Bible says joy is? I know I've heard in my life that joy is different than happiness. But sometimes I wonder if that is a teaching to water down joy in order to deal with pain, rather than encouraging us to find joy despite pain.

By the way, I realize that we can experience joy in the midst of suffering... I understand that. But enjoying a rockin worship and experiencing joy that the bible is talking about are two totally different things.
As far as I can tell anyway...
thoughts?

I think you're right. We can certainly be 'self centered' about our problems, I've done it... I know it can be done. (I've managed to be self centered in just about every scenario possible.)

I agree wholeheartedly that we should celebrate the mercy that God is going to show us. But, for me, sometimes it is hard to feel like partying when I'm hurting. It is also hard when I'm standing next to someone who is hurting.
There is a lot of pain in being a Christian, and rightfully so. Being honest with myself is an extremely large pill to swallow... not fun. I suspect that our church is full of people who are trying to be honest with themselves... and that isn't easy.

My main point is that sometimes it is difficult to feel like partying about God's grace when this life hurts really bad.

Nothing wrong with a rockin' worship service... I like em. But if rockin' services distract us from the truth about ourselves, or life or even God and what he wants from us. Then I have a problem with it.

I think I agree with your assessment of us as sinners, but it seems pretty explicitly clear in the Bible to celebrate, even in response to our knowledge of grief and stuff. I think it's a tragedy that churches are somber so much of the time. not that it needs to look like a house party, but maybe a little more joy would be a good thing.

Dusty, do you think that focusing on our own problems instead of the righteousness of God and the gift of his salvation is just continuing to be self-centered?

From my perspective, the good news (gospel) is pretty great, but the bad news is pretty sobering. It is somewhat difficult to celebrate God's mercy, when the truth is that I am uncontrollably self righteous, evil, and a whole bunch of other bad stuff mixed in. That said, God's choice to be merciful to me, is worth jumping up and down about. But it took a pretty profound insight into the ugly self righteous depths of myself to understand that. That insight for some reason makes it difficult for me to jump up and down.

My first thought when I read the quote from the S.I. article was "what church is that guy going to, I want to go."

I have always wondered why we (myself included) as Christians never "get our party on". We are the ones who truly have something to party about. I have no profound answer to the question just what I know from personal experience.

I feel the most free "to get my party on" when others around me feel that freedom also. My best worship experiences have been at concerts, i.e. David Crowder at Creation Fest and when I visited a church where everyone else around me was freely worshipping, not to mention that it was pretty dark & loud in the auditorium. I think a lot of me not worshipping as freely or not getting my party on like I would love to do stems from my own insecurities. Are people gonna think I'm weird, are people gonna hear how bad my singing is, blah, blah, blah.

So all that to say, I'm insecure. No, just kidding (well kinda) but I also agree with SSquared I think if I could ever wrap my small mind around what Jesus has done for me maybe I wouldn't give a hoot what everyone around me thought and I would just start "partying like it was 1999" (that's for you Prince fans).

Don't get me started, man. The quotes make interesting observations.

Why is it so easy to whooop it up at some function, but when it comes to singing and praising, we become stoic and reserved? I would love to see people free to worship.

One thing which helped me is to sing praise songs outside of church. I am free to worship however I want without feeling like people are looking at me. By singing praise songs on my own, it has taught me to be completely focused on Christ during my worship. Once I became comfortable on my own, I am now able to bring that worship into the congregation.

Sure, there are times I would love to dance down the aisles...maybe I should.

I remember several weeks ago, someone walked up to the front steps and bowed down. That was COOL!!! That was being fully free. Amen!

Praise and worship should take us out of the ordinary and lead us into the extraordinary. It's one of the closest experiences to heaven we have while here on earth.

I'm not saying we have to run up and down the aisles, or wave our hands around, but try new things. Lift up your hands. Kneel down at your seat. Bow in reverence.

Yikes! What were the questions again?

I think what they say about worship is, in general, Christians do not understand the seriousness of what Christ did for us on the Cross. If we really understood the sacrifice Christ made for EACH and EVERY ONE us, we would be in awe and rejoicing each and everyday. I know for myself, I take things for granted WAY too much. The other day I sat thinking how I may have reacted when Christ was crucified. And what about seeing Him days later? Wow! How would I have reacted?