Lori's thoughts

And this is my last comment too (honest)...by my last post I did not mean to imply folks did not have a right to voice their opinion on this blog (that's what it's here for) but I just think if we're going to make really strong statements about the calling God has put on other peoples hearts we should be responsible about it and do a little more research than spending a few minutes on their website (that goes for me too).

I read my blog from last night and thought it was a bit strong myslef(it was late)

That's all! God bless!

One more comment before I try to sign off as well.

Once again, I am not attacking 'the rebelution' or Brett and Alex. This conference sounded like it was great, challenging, etc. I am glad that students went and are resonating with what sounds like a great challenge. I'm not saying don't buy the t-shirt, the conference resonated with you and you believe in it's message (as would I, I believe, if I had been there.) By all means buy the shirt. You didn't do so blindly.

At other venues I have seen thousands of teenagers follow leaders blindly. The leaders had bible in hand, took verses out of context, used crafty marketing, and gained thousands of followers, not to Christ but to their propaganda...although they attached Christ's name to it!

They (other venues)are gaining those with out a proper grid (biblical worldview) and probably leading them to hell in the process, although they will definately be good moral people, with a cool conference t-shirt!

All I am saying to which I think we can agree on, is let's teach students (as it sounds like you are doing) to think biblically and not be duped by any wolf in sheep's clothing.

That does not seem to have happened in the case of the rebelution, (praise God) and would like to attend a conference if they do another.

The common denominator here is that you guys are great parents teaching your kids to think through what they are hearing biblically,how do we get others doing the same?

Good Morning. First, I must apologize for my 'rant' yesterday. I am not frustrated with youth, I am frustrated with the idea that we as adults don't give our youth more opportunities. That we sometimes take a hands-off approach and figure they will get involved if they want to.
When sometimes all it takes is asking.
Lori's point is a very valid one. We must be willing to at the very least allow our kids to try...and fail if need be, for in this they will learn. They may even surprise themselves with what they are capable of when they rely not on themselves but on God.
Andy I think you make some very good points as well.
I particularly agree with this and really I think what we got out of the conference follows right along with this thinking.
My response to God's Grace (whether I trust Him or not) will ultimately be displayed in my behavior. But accomplishing things for God's glory doesn't necessarily mean that I will be a super smart, well read, well written, well spoken, confident guy/gal with a successful 'ministry'. I might be a widow who gives a penny to the 'offering'.

You see, that's what our kids heard. You remember the saying, "If you are going to fall, fall reaching?" (or maybe that was a country music song) anyway...the idea is, give it your all (as the widow did), not just enough to get by, don't do it because you are trying to impress your family, or your friends or get your name in the paper, but do it because God has equipped you and if you fall, He has also provided the grace to restore you.

I think I too have reached my quota. If my remarks have offended, I apologize. I admit, that I am not even close to perfect and wouldn't expect to be until the day I am perfected in Christ in His presence.

~all done~

You have made some very stong statments without really knowing these guys message. I can tell you there was nothing legalistic about their message at the conference or in their book.

The message I heard at the conference, in the book, and at their church was very grace-filled.

I'm a little confused why this topic became such a strong attach on a couple guys who are trying to serve Christ in this way. God help us all from being self-righteous white washed tombs but to imply that these guys could be creating these type of teen followers I think is just wrong (sorry Andy, you know I love you brother).

I don't want to overly or blindly defend Alex and Bret (I think they can do a good job on thier own) and I'm sure not a follower of Alex or a follower of Brett, nor do I want my son to be (I'm a follower of Christ) but I think there is a fine line between being a critical thinker and being just plain critical and I think it may have been crossed.

That's all from me but thanks everyone for stimulating my thinking a bit...and other than the cool t-shirt I'm skeptical of marketing too.

thanks everyone for the discussion. i have officially reached my limit. we have so many points being exchanged that i no longer know what to comment on. i look forward to many more discussions.

i agree with lori.

i think it's good to challenge kids.

i'm skeptical of advertising.

have a great weekend.

As an un-casual observer of this thread, I'd like to express my appreciation for the discussion. I admire in each of you the courage to lay forth your ideas to let them be chewed up in the blender of discourse. I could write lots, but I'll try to limit myself :-) because I really have work to do.

I don't think anybody can deny that the 'rebelution' guys have hit a marketing home run, regardless of whether or not they set out to do so. I think Courtney is discussing the impact that this type of gloss clothed in Christianity can have on the non-Christian culture, but I have some thoughts on the possible effects within the Christian culture itself.

The discussion about culture is relevant because we are all influenced by at least several cultures during our lifetimes. Sometimes it is very difficult for us to see that the message of Christ, the Gospel, is a-cultural. That is, the Truth is the Truth no matter what man made (self made) cultural parameters we're living under. To wit, our obligation is to struggle against man made culture to find the Truth. Most of us (dare I say all of us?) have great difficulty overcoming the self-protecting paradigms which we conspire with our cultures to create. This is the real hard thing to do. I think this is a point that Courtney is making (tell me if I'm wrong Courtney).

Movements like the 'Rebelution' can cause unintended harm because of the nature of cultural influence on sinful humans; even when the movement makers have the best of intentions. Here the intent might well be to 'empower' teens to live 'holy' lives by 'accomplishing much for God's glory,' but the outcome might easily be to create a generation of 'whitewashed tombs.'

Indeed the Gospel is 'good news' for us because of our wretched depravity. The only way I can begin to grasp a glimmer of the Truth about God's Mercy is to recognize how utterly sinful I am. I don't like to feel the pain associated with the Truth, so I find ways around it. For years, my Christianity helped me hide from the Truth. I was 'doing' good Christian stuff and 'saying' good Christian things, but I wasn't trusting God's Grace . . . I was trusting my doing and saying.

And so, like me, many Christians are modern day Pharisees who don't really need a Messiah. Or if you prefer a New Testament analogy, many Christians preach and believe "another gospel".

Brett writes in his blog, "Therefore I must take all precautions to guard myself in all holiness, righteousness, and purity. Sin cannot be endured. The war is on, the fight is God’s—therefore I will be victorious. No truces will be made; no terms will be accepted. Victory is my end and that through Jesus Christ.
Reminding myself that one slip will destroy all possibilities of great service I will take and pursue all measures of accountability and protection. For if sin reigns I am ruined, and if it gains I have lost."

Brett, one slip will not destroy all possibilities. If you and all the 'rebelutionaries' believe this, you've missed the whole point of the Gospel, and you are doomed to miserable failure because sin does reign in the world. I can tell you, you will slip more than once. How many times did Peter slip? How about Paul? Was all lost when the rooster crowed? No!

I admire your desire to not want to slip, but setting up a culture of 'non-slippage' is just what the Pharisees did. They were such 'non-slippers' that they didn't recognize their own Messiah. Enduring sin in the knowledge that God's Grace is sufficient is what God wants from us. (Please don't read "enduring sin" as willfully taking pleasure in evil. But rather as acknowledging the evil inside ourselves and hating it because we long for God's perfect Moral Goodness.)

Brett writes in his blog, "To change the world God has changed my heart. To fight the fight God has won the war. To run the race Christ has set me free. All this is mine through Christ Jesus my Lord, yet this is the road often missed, often forgotten, often ignored."

But it seems to me from my study of God's Word that He is writing a beautiful story about redeeming the world, not about changing it. To redeem me, God has changed my heart. Redemption includes change, but it also includes so much more. And it is Him who is redeeming, not me! I'm just grateful that I'm being redeemed as a small part of the whole.

My response to God's Grace (whether I trust Him or not) will ultimately be displayed in my behavior. But accomplishing things for God's glory doesn't necessarily mean that I will be a super smart, well read, well written, well spoken, confident guy/gal with a successful 'ministry'. I might be a widow who gives a penny to the 'offering'.

My comments are made in love, and I'm more than willing to accept criticisms of my arguments. I leave you with this quote from Purity of Heart is to Will One Thing by Soren Kierkegaard which is the most profound book (other than the Bible) that I've ever read:

"Let us never deceive youth by foolish talk about the matter of accomplishing. Let us not make them quick to judge what thy perhaps do not understand, instead of willing something eternal and being content with little for themselves."

I'm off to church now..will have to catch up later.

what if reading incredible hulk comics really challenges their thinking about prejudice and socialization?
I would say, "Great it has challenged your thinking and now, what practical life applications can be lived out from your new found thinking?"
It's not enough just to 'think' it...they need to learn how to 'live it' even when it's hard and it's going against pretty much what everyone around them is doing.
What do you see as the designer clothing of Christian culture? Is it the WWJD t-shirts or bracelets? Jon, most of the kids we know who are Christian and home-schooled don't have a 'look'. They wear what they found on sale. They don't allow their 'look' and accessories to define who they are, they only live out their lives with actions that they feel will ultimately glorify their God.

traps=expectations, advertising

using them as well= expectations, advertising

same tools different goals. it just causes me to be skeptical because i've first hand where the christians using those tools have the same goals, just packaging it differently.

i did not say that the conference was a gimmick. i said that many things in christian subculture are gimmicky. my implication was that we should not assume that because it is a christian author that they are automatically being more sincere than a nonchristian author. that if we can label designer clothes as bad, we should be able to ask "what are the 'designer clothes' and 'ipods' of christian culture?" and address the issue just like we would address the issue of texting too much or wearing immodest clothing. each of those things uses marketing to make kids feel like they need them in order to mean something. and for good or worse, the advertising for christian products does the same thing.

let me ask you a question; if kids don't read "systematic theology" are they not reaching their potential? what if reading incredible hulk comics really challenges their thinking about prejudice and socialization?

deanna,

i think what eric was trying to articulate in his comment was that he understood your reasons for going to the conference, and was pleased to hear that it was a break from the norm as you just articulated. it seems from his comment that he's asking the question; what about those other kids? are we doing a good job of teaching them well how to judge between what the cool things are and what the good things are? how to think critically about some of the conflicts we have been discussing?

because in all honesty many of the christian products and expectations are just as gimmicky and meaningless. that's why when something comes along discouraging kids from falling into those traps, while using them as well

I'm a little lost here. What traps do you believe the Rebelution is trying to discourage kids from falling into?
Is giving away books like "Systematic Theology" or "Humility: True Greatness, by CH Mahaney a gimmick?
The boys gave away many other books from their reading list.

What these kids and us parents as well experienced at the mall
sorry for the typo..this obviously should have said conference.

Is it conceivable that others would do so in other areas because it is the cool Christian thing to do?


So this is where I have the potential of getting myself in hot water. I am going to try to be as cautious as possible with my words.
The event, as I shared with Jon last night, was not a sit-around, hold-hands, kum-ba-ya, comedy skits, jump-out of your seats let's go take over our world, rally. The entire conference with the exception of a few breaks for worship music and give-aways, was comprised of three speakers. Alex, Brett, and Gregg (their Dad) It was more of a day of 'sermons' and I want to use that word cautiously, because our kids weren't being preached to, they were being encouraged. But the things they shared could have easily been shared during a Sunday service at church.

This is where it could get ugly. I don't believe that that type of event would be viewed in our church culture as the "cool Christian thing to do." In fact, I would submit to you that many would have viewed it as 'lame'. Where are the video effects? The rocking bands? (Not that the music didn't rock cause it did!) The rope climbs, etc., etc. They were absent. Why, because they weren't needed! Because those who were in attendance understood the message without the frill attached. I will be even so bold as to say that most of the kids in attendance would be those who in today's 'modern' churches would be outsiders. Because they haven't bought into the myth that 'normal' teens text-message 200 times a day or an hour, have friends whose advice means more to them than their parent's, so much so that they feel it necessary to 'lock' their cell-phones and email accounts so that their parents will not know what they say when they are away from their presence. Who would find it an embarrassment to hang out with their parents on a Friday night and watch movies, or even worse be seen with them at a mall. Who have no trouble wearing the latest fashions which basically throw any form of modesty out the window. Forgive my rant. I will end with a quote from one Rob's comments,
these guys really want to challenge kids to not waist their teens year and use them full-hearted for God-can't we all agree that's a great and needed thing in our culture?!!

What these kids and us parents as well experienced at the mall was indeed 'cool', but certainly not because it was seen as the next 'cool christian thing to do'.

you know, i think i'm ok with the definition the rebelution has for itself. i think it's admirable to challenge kids to have greater aspirations and standards for themselves. i worked in youth services for 5 years before i started at grace. the one thing we were always having to do was encourage kids to dream a little bit, find out what they love and take a shot at it-to quit thinking that because they live in a trailer park in springfield that they're worthless. i see the same things in this message, only about faith and holiness. i'm quite satisfied with that.

for me, the issue at stake is that if were going to teach our kids with high cultural standards, then let's have high standards when it comes to contemporary christian culture as well. because in all honesty many of the christian products and expectations are just as gimmicky and meaningless. that's why when something comes along discouraging kids from falling into those traps, while using them as well(free book promos, t-shirts, etc.), i tend to be more skeptical because of that fact.

So...I am curious to hear from Jon, Courtney and Erik,

what do YOU see this 'movement' as? Could you define it?

Rob--our kids each bought one...we are just the blind leading the blind at this point. ;-)

lolol

I have a confession to make...I bought the Do Hard Things tee-shirt. God forgive me for my blindness:)

That's all I have time to say right noe but i will say more later.

Oh, it feels good to get that off my chest.

Deanna,

I agree with you about your kids, as well as the Teigen's. You have some great kids!

Nor was I suggesting that they (personally) would follow this movement blindly. Is it conceivable that others would do so in other areas because it is the cool Christian thing to do?

again, i'm not saying that it's a bad application or that it's wrong for it to be used as a title verse for the rebelution. by the way timothy was most likely in his late thirties. there were certainly expectations placed on him. it wasn't like he was just chillin' playing xbox at 35.

my point about timothy is that tone of the book is not about timothy's youth, it is about his job description. the first thing i learned years ago about studying the bible, and i'm sure you've learned it too, is that you don't make major out of minor things in scripture. the weight of paul's letter is on timothy's role as a pastor, not his insecurity.

Eric,

As I hope you have seen in both the Hart and the Tiegen children, they don't 'follow' the crowds. I believe they all have a very firm grasp on who they are following and why.
Their (Rob, correct me if I am wrong) excitement stems from finding like-minded teens who were willing to step up and give a voice to those thoughts both nationally and globally, AND not just give it a voice but give it arms and legs as well.

i would agree rob.

i wouldn't say that i know them at all. everything i know about them is from reading or hearing about them. but all of that has been that they are exemplary and so i have no reason to think that they are anything other than genuine, godly you men. and i find it remarkable that what they have to say resonates with so many kids.

Jon,
it's my thinking and I could be wrong that Timothy probably was worried about his ability at his young age. That thought must have come from somewhere. Paul was encouraging him, that it was not he Timothy, but God who would be enabling Him.

I think that is the point here as well. The second our youth start to believe they are accomplishing something on their own, then I think they have lost the importance of where their abilities come from.

Just on a personal side note:
My kids don't wear designer clothes, they don't shop at the 'in stores'. While I wouldn't be so deceived as to say that they are completely oblivious to marketing ploys, I would say that they do have some discernment capabilities.

As a youth pastor, I have been to tons of camps and conferences. I have been less and less impressed with these types of events for many reasons. When I first heard about the "rebelution" I was rather excited and was asked to promote the event with our youth. This conference seemed different (and apparently was as I have heard and read). I really enjoyed the concept of parents attending with their kids. As I am a firm believer in the Duet. 6 principle, and am constantly struggling with what that means for youth ministry as we know it.

However, after visiting the website some weeks before the event in Portland and before the book was even released I noticed a direct marketing ploy to get teens to buy the book saying something like, "they say teens don't won't buy a nonfictional book, let's prove them wrong by helping our book to get the top of Amazon.com's best seller list." Again I believe this was before the book even came out and we had a chance to see what kind of content was in the book.

Unfortunately, because of my experience with too many camps and conferences that seemed to be just getting teens there to sell their merchandise as the next cool movement for young Christians. I could not promote the event in good conscience, because in my mind (correctly or incorrectly) it was "Here we go again! Another Christian company pawning this off as the next movement for teens." This may not be in any way Alex and Brett's fault (whom I have been very impressed with) but stems from a problem as Courtney and Jon have touched on with in our Christian subculture.

Knowing Courtney and Jon pretty well, I know that they do not have low expectations of the youth, rather the opposite. Where these young men are trying to teach youth to do hard things in action (to which I applaud them for)
I believe (forgive me if I am wrong) Courtney and Jon are trying to get us to think critically and teach our youth the same. In a sense to do hard things is great, but to be able to put that through a grid of a biblical worldview (not necessarily a "Christian subculture" worldview) is even more powerful. Let's not just follow blindly, (which I'm not suggesting anyone that went to the conference is doing) but be wise about who and what we are following.

I think the discussion is very important too. I guess I see so many of the things talked about as issues of conscience (which I don't think we talk about enough in Christian circles).

It would be unfair for me to say that my family is more godly because we homeschool (it's not the only biblical way to educate) as it's unfair for Courtney to imply that because kids are homeschooled their too sheltered to know what's going on out in the real world. I choose to homeschool because it's a conviction I have and it would be harmful for my conscience to violate that.

Marketing/branding is not evil or bad in and of itself (our church does it) but like music can be used for good or evil so can branding. I am in the Christian publishing world and I have seen really godly people use the same marketing/branding and just go out and preach/teach the message god has given them. I have also seen many authors who want to sell a ton of books, and be rich and successful, and want to exploit the branding and God for their own gain (at least that's the way I see it, only God knows for sure)

As long as the twins are not violating scripture they have to determine before God and their own conscience if the message they are preaching and the way they're communicating and getting that message out there is the message God has given them to preach. Then it becomes an issue of the heart and I don't claim to know these guys better than you but I was at the conference, at their church, and did speak to their dad and believe these guys really want to challenge kids to not waist their teens year and use them full-hearted for God-can't we all agree that's a great and needed thing in our culture?!!

back to Lori's main point-we should not have low expectations of our kids today just because society does. They're capable of doing big things for God.

rob, i know that you have a lot of experience in publishing and promotion, so i don't disagree with you lightly. in fact, the reason this whole discussion is important to me, is for the very reason that we do disagree about what we see. the fact that we can both look at that brand and see it differently is why these discussions are important.

Ok, I see your point and totally agree with you on I Cor. (When the pastor wanted to use it my wedding I said no thanks)...but I still don't see it in this case (but I'm ok with agreeing to disagree on this one) because I do see your point and agree with the premise (generally speaking).

doesn't that put your mind at ease, Jon?:)

Hello all, this is Alex -- the other twin guy being discussed here. Brett and I are encouraged that those here who have been to the conference and read the book are excited about the message of the Rebelution. At the same time, as Brett said, we understand the concerns that Courtney and Jon have -- and we appreciate how obviously they care about our generation, our world, and the truth of God's word. Thank you, everyone.

Courtney and Jon, we'd love to send each of you a copy of the book. One of the reasons we wrote it was because the blog format makes it difficult to ensure that everyone reads every important clarification -- and the same limitations apply to an online discussion like this one. We understand that you may still have concerns -- and they may even be justified! But we do want to make sure you have the clearest understanding of where we're coming from.

If you're willing, please email me (just click the "mail" button next to my name) your mailing address and we'll get a book off to you pronto. Thanks again, and God bless you all!

that's a cool poem

actually, i would agree with you. every word and phrase in that header is being manipulated to mean what the designer wants you to perceive it to mean, not what it actually means.
The verse doesn't say anything about low expectations, that meaning is given by the creator of the brand. paul's letter is telling timothy how to be a good pastor, and that is one verse in a string of many about the importance of doctrinal consistency and attention to study. nothing else in the entire letter implies that people don't listen to timothy because he's young. and he is certainly not writing a letter to thousands of teens with that as his driving point.

all that aside, i'm not attacking the validity of what the twins are teaching. i'm not attacking the integrity(and i hope you read this brett) of the twins. i'm simply saying that if we are going to be ardent about teaching our kids about not falling prey to the expectations of our culture(that is permeated by advertising) then a simple acknowledgment of branding and perception as it relates to marketing is also something we should include in those discussions. especially when the very people delivering that message of nonconformity are using those elements very well to get their message across.

Courtney,

Well I'll say one thing, this blog is anything but boring. I will work on a response this afternoon. I do want to leave you with this, they are lyrics written by my son, and at first glance may seem simple, but when he verbalizes his intentions and meanings behind the song, I have to believe that he 'gets it'. He might not understand 'cultural language', but he certainly understands empathy.
Posted with his permission:

Alone on the corner, I sit in the rain,
Holding strings at my waist, I listen in pain,
To the terrible shouts, they scream from above.,
Callously drowning, the music I love.

Alone on my corner, I watch as the man
Runs round in circles as fast as he can.
If I wish I were he, then I wouldn’t hide,
But I sit on my corner, and wish he were I.

Alone on this corner, I sit and I cry,
And I don’t really care for the world rushing by.
For the world rushing by, I don’t really care.
I’d join if I wanted, I know it is there.

Alone on the corner, the tears from my eyes,
Remind me of rain that falls from the sky
And angers the others, for they cannot see,
That God sent the shower, to cleanse them and me.

Jon,
When you pull out the words, 'rebel' and 'revolution' are you not also removing them from their context?

"Rebel against low expectations" such as were evident in the time of Timothy of someone so young?

rob,
i described them a bit in an earlier comment. i'm not disagreeing about scripture application to our lives.

let's take a different example from scripture. if i take 1 corinthians 13 in its original context, it is talking about relationships in the church being more important than who has what gifts(to give a wide paraphrase). the context of the verses about love are directly tied in the text to paul's discussion on gifts within the church. however, i can't even count the number of weddings i have been to that have used this verse. when it is being used to talk about a husband and wife, it is out of its original context(a much better literal text for a wedding would be from ephesians 5). that doesn't mean that it's bad to use it at weddings or even untrue. however, because people hear it at weddings they assume, because of setting and imagery that are associated, that 1 corinthians 13 is about love in a marriage. and we must understand the difference between original meaning and added meaning.

on the website, you have "rebel" and "revolution," which both carry specific connotations, directly linked with the scripture reference. if i apply the meanings and connotations of those two words to that verse, then what stands out is part a of the verse, not part b(when i read only the text of the single verse removed from surrounding verses which reinforce the original meaning that you and i know). this adds meaning to the original context. again, i'm not saying it's bad or nasty, but just to point out that it's important to know the difference.

I must humbly disagree!

How then do we apply any of scripture to our current life, setting, and culture with assurance and conviction?

You have to look at the original meaning true but then you have to ask in the context of how Paul was using it does it fit into our current situtation and yes it does.

We live in a culture that has certain ways they look at young people and young followers of Christ should not let that intimidate them from living out the gospel at their age...how is that taking the verse out of context?!

I do also agree that this happens a lot and we have to be very careful that we don't take verses out of context but I don't believe that has happened in this case.

Maybe I should ask for more clarification on what specific themes and images you are refering to?

Deanna,
No one can argue with your reasons for home schooling. As a parent I understand the need and desire to protect and cultivate children's ability to face the world.

A brief bio on me:
I'm a native of Eugene. I've been a member of Grace since it broke off form First B in the 80's. I lived in Seattle for 7 years in the 90's and received my degree in Visual Communications (graphic design, illustration) in 96. I spent these seven years volunteering in a youth group in Woodinville teaching and leading music. I've been to Europe three time, once as a drummer for a touring band, once to visit art historical sites in France, Spain and Italy, and once to see my brother get married in Norway. I graduated this year from the UO with a BA in Art History. I received a department award for undergrad research writing.
I am a graphic designer by day for a local company and have a freelance practice as well. I am a practicing fine artist. I had my first solo show in January 06. I'm married and have a two year old and a 2 month old.

In all my travels, studies and pursuits in art and music, my main questions have revolved around the huge gap between our Christian sub-culture and the "secular" culture at large. Tracing the development of ideas, rifts and change in visual art and language through all of this. These issues may or may not be of concern to you. But so you know where I am coming from.
I grew up in the youth group at Grace, and while certain things were helpful, I felt largely detached because what I was being told about morality, remaining pure and busying my self with biblical study and service seemed to only make the gap between me and my friend wider and wider. I was a skater, I had long hair, wore a black trench coat or leather and chains and listened to a lot of punk, metal and hip-hop.
A big pull for me was that much of what I was into had heavy social and political commentary that I disagreed with. But I was hearing about history and cultural perspectives that were not only different, but seemingly not existent to what I was being told in church with regards to how we were supposed to approach the world. Talk about angst and guilt. Thankfully my parents were steadfast in the attempt s to allow me to express my self and rebel in my own way. I never did drugs, or partied- even in college. It seemed pointless. But I have to say that the way my parents gave me room to be, and try out the trappings of contemporary culture I was able to do so without feeling like I was breaking some constructed spiritual notion I was given in youth group.
These constructed ideas about what it means to be a Christian and act in a holy manner that is bringing glory to God is at the very heart of my concern. These constructions are widespread and subtle and probably unknown to many of us, even my self. But they reflect an ignorance of how the world has changed and how we as a society relate and communicate to each other. This is where "cultural language" comes in- a huge topic that I can't possibly cover here as I am late for work already. But I will say briefly that the "Commitment to know and obey the Scriptures keeps believers from contemporary forms of false worship" has become something of an excuse or reason to pull away from society and cultivate a closed idea of what it means to be a follower of Christ. "Contemporary forms of false worship" very often contain the keys to understanding a society. I'm not saying we embrace those things whatever they are. Not at all. But we should not be afraid or run or judge, which is what happens all to often. Instead, I feel we need to be better at cultivating an attitude of empathy. In our society today, this will become the most effective approach to sharing Christ. People don't listen to people who don't know what the hell they are talking about or even assume to know all the answers. We as Christians have a ridiculous habit of allowing our certainty in Christ's grace to sound like we know what is best for everyone. This is "read" as uncaring arrogance.

Anyway, I have to go and I'll check for a response later. None of this is an assumption of your personal feelings on things. I'm merely trying to share my position and how I came by it. On one level my viewpoint is subjective and based on my experience. But scholars have written widely about this cultural paradigm shift and too many of my friends have come to me with shared experiences and concerns. Some of these realizations come as a shocking suprise and hard for them to deal with. People have left our church because of realizations that went either disregarded or misinterpreted. This is a shame because it reflects a relationship with Christ that is dynamic and physically active, not passive.

Deanna I appreciate your energy and passion. You and I probably have more in common than we can see through blogging. I don't want to try and beat you at war of words. I just want to be clear.

who needs a drink?

Ok, about 1 timothy 4:12- any time you take any text(it could be shakespeare) out of its original setting and place it alongside new words and images, you are taking it out of context. I'm not saying that the website is not acknowledging the original meaning of the verse. I'm saying that because of the themes and images it is attached to on the site, there are added meanings.

Courntey,

As to your question of why do we homeschool? Quite simply because my husband and I know that God has called us to homeschool. Yes, I heard Him whisper it in my ear, then later confirm it through Bible verses.
Deuteronomy 6:4-8, with particular attention to vs 6-7. "And these words , which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart; and you shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. To quote from a bible commentary, The moral and biblical education of the children was accomplished best not in a formal teaching period each day but when the parents, out of concern for their own lives as well as their children's, made God and His Word the natural topic of a conversation which might occur anywhere and anytime during the day. This is very difficult to do when your child is in a classroom away from you 7 hours a day.
Also borrowing from a commentary, and Courtney I do this not only because I am not eloquent with my words, but because I know the commentary says it better than I could. Only be letting God's words invade every area of their lives and homes and by diligently teaching them to their children could the nation hope to escape the seduction of false worship ...The same principle applies to Christians today. Commitment to know and obey the Scriptures keeps believers from contemporary forms of false worship. When a young child say first or second grade is taught an untruth in school, where is his parent's ability to speak to him in the moment, to give him the truth. By the time the child has come home, he has probably been exposed to a great number of untruths, most he would not be able to recall from memory, but they are still there. This I would say, is our primary reason to homeschool. The advantages that we as a family have experienced from homeschooling have been many. Particularly the advantage of our kids being able to use some of their most alert, waking hours to serve in the community. Whether it be at the foodbank, or babysitting for an event at the church.

You'll have to forgive my ignorance, Courtney, but I still do not see where you have given me an explanation of what "language of our culture" means.
To make a claim that is more than just emotional or superficial, let alone one that has deeper and longer lasting meaning, it has to be done in a socially acceptable and understood way who determines what is 'socially acceptable'. Also, what is homeschooling admittedly disconnected from?

I am curious Courtney, as to your travels. Where have you lived, where have your visited? Where did you go to school?

Hi All,

I'll chime in as another person who went to the conference and also someone who has been in the Christain publishing world for 14 years and has seen my share of christian marketing gimmcks and "christian superstars". This was one of the most spiritually enriching and encouraging conference I've seen out there. What I liked most about it was the fact that although it was run by youth, Brett and Alex's dad was involved and a part of it (just like he has been envolved in the teaching and training of their lives). I also appreciate that this was a conference that encouraged the parents to come and hear the message and be involved too. So many of these youth events are kids running off with each other and their youth leader baby-sitting for the day and the kids having a good time (so what) and the parents really don't know what they learned or if they learned anything but just feel good that their kids were at a christian function (ok now I'm not being fair). This gave me as a dad an opportunity to dialog with Josh and ask him what he wants his life to mean over the next few years and discuss what he's really passionate about and how he can channel that passion for God now and not in 10 years when he's an "adult"! Yes Brett and Alex are just kids but their just kids who we're raised with wise, godly parents who taught them in the word and have made sure they're surrounded by mentors (so sadly they have a better grasp of scripture and life than most adults in the church).

As far as I Timothy 4:12 goes it wasn't taken out of context at all. Greek culture placed great value on age and experience Timothy was considered young in this culture but because he had been trained under Paul for years (as Alex and Brett have been by their dad who has been a paster/teaching eldor for years) Paul wanted Timothy to know he did not need to be intimidated by the Greek culture because of his age. We live in a culture that thinks teens are just kids and Paul would say to them live for God and don't let the culture's stero-type keep you from preaching the gospel (in a humble manner if you will)

I'm glad Brett responded. I don't really have much more to add but would say go to a conference, read a book, or as I did go visit their church the day after the conference we're they went from a conference where they challenged 2,200 kids and parents to lvie for God and raise the standard and then were siting in the pew the next day worshiping next to their parents and with their church friends/family.

Deanna,
You've asked several questions and I want to be clear.
I don't have a problem with home school. I was home schooled in the 5th grade to help me catch up to my peers. It was immensely helpful. I have no idea about your reasons so please don't assume anything. It seems like many who home school have ideological reasons for doing so and I see that as harmful to the body of Christ as well as the kids. Why do you do it?

In regards to the Harris brothers and my statement about "proper education"- it had less to do with home school (which is admittedly disconnected, and intentionally so, correct?) and more to do with the fact that I found a large amount of naïveté in their writing. We as believers aren't taken seriously by society when we pull the "I was called by the Lord at a young age" line. To make a claim that is more than just emotional or superficial, let alone one that has deeper and longer lasting meaning, it has to be done in a socially acceptable and understood way. That usually means college credentials and life experience. It's great they have accomplished so much. I think it is great your kids are active and have cool interests. But that doesn't make any of them authorities on the subtitles of our culture. Social theory is complex. I wouldn't expect your kids to know what the "language of our culture" is because they are kids. We have to teach it to them. And if you don't know what that means then my point is proven. It is our responsibility as parents and Christians to prepare our kids to go out into the world and know what is going on and not react out of fearful judgment or ideological paranoia. It's scary, but necessary.

I see that Brett Harris has commented now and I welcome any insight he can give on this next bit.

If we really want a rebelution in our culture it needs to start with seeing through some of the smoke and mirrors of Christian culture. I understand that sounds harsh, but it leads to my main point. That the message of Christ today is most often subverted by it's packaging- form, presentation- whatever you want to call it. A message- any message- is not more powerful than the wrapper it comes in. Content can be undermined by the carrier. Reality has been subverted by mass media and most people aren't intentionally engaged with what is going on around them. Society responds to certain signs and symbols, and those signs and symbols are connected to history. When Christianity acts as if the history of signs, symbols and language didn't take place we in effect deny that their is a meta-narrative taking place. This is a negative aspect of post modernism from the Christian perspective. (By meta-narrative I mean the arc of history and God's plan that operates within).

You (Brett Harris) seem to have a firm grasp of some of the more questionable aspects of american consumer culture. It reflects fundamentalist trends that either ignore or are unaware of the impact of post-modernism on the American consciousness. Do you know the difference between propaganda and an authentic, empathetic message? Are you interested in how we as a body are perceived by a pluralistic and subjective society. There is a positive and negative side to pluralism and subjectivity. Do you know when these things creep into your own approach to ministry? Are they positive or negative? You can't expect to authentically empower teens to change culture if they don't even know where their culture ends and they as individuals begin? This is not a stamp of approval on "post-modernism" as a philosophical position or a complete dismissal of what God has put on your heart. But rather an attempt at discussing some serious cultural issues with someone who has influence over a large number of believers.

Understand that I grew up in a subculture that believes the message of Christ is more powerful than anything. I do believe in the power of the Gospel, the blood of Christ... the whole nine yards. Christ can change lives. But in this day and age, so can Buddha. And Buddhism acknowledges subjectivity and the futility of materialism and capitalist culture. That is a powerful message today and very often buddhists "exist" in a much more authentic way that we as Christians do. They're not always trying to convince people of something, they just live the life. American culture has shifted to a place where the form a message takes is as equally important as the message itself. When someone like the Harris brothers come along with yet another slick website and promote themselves propagandistically, and use the suspicious trappings of advertising (again, inherently deceitful because of the way it twists language in order to convince you to buy something) their message, while helping the body, does immense damage to how we are perceived by culture. It doesn't matter that they give books away. They should. But the message is subverted by the overall tone of their site.

That was a lot to try and explain myself. Deanna you pointed out, "Our kids are excited about an online community of like-minded individuals who are searching for ways to make a difference, to do more, to be more. A place where modesty is encouraged by both both girl and boy teens."

These alone are important issues and certainly a reason to check out the Harris material further. Teens need positive peer interaction. It is a hallmark of our culture today. If they get that from the Rebelution then great. But we absolutely have to pay attention to the subtleties and complexities in our own culture. We all need to know what "cultural language" is. It's our responsibility as believers.

This conversation has definitely revealed viewpoints and passions. Which are all important in the body of Christ. As long as we can remain respectful and operate within the knowledge that we all care about each other, the church and the direction it is heading then I think this conversation is critical and should go on.
That said, I want to answer some questions directed at me in regards to my post and hopefully make some sense of what is being stated.

Lori,
I would be interested in reading the book. It would only be fair. There are a lot of things that need to change within the body for Christ to be heard outside the body. I think that is a theme that I read coming to the surface of this conversation. In a word, I think something the whole body needs to learn is "cultural literacy". We are as good as dead in the water on our present course. It would be spiritually irresponsible to ignore or at least not address the changing needs of our society. This includes mentoring and bringing children along side adults and giving them a time and place to build character, think for themselves and even work independently. What that looks like however, is at the crux of the issue. Ministry and community outreach for the longest time has been something of a bait-and-switch approach meant to provide opportunity to talk to others about Christ. Intentions aside, our culture does not, nor should they buy into this kind of approach. I'm not saying this is what you are talking about, but rather an example of a traditional approach the modern church has taken that has to be re-thought.
Ministry and outreach with that kind of agenda behind it is a reflection of its society for sure. For the longest time the Christian subculture has modeled itself after what it sees "in the world" in order to appear as if it was "just as cool" or relevant. It has adopted advertising tactics that are still used, but with the younger generations seen with disdain and suspicion. This is a subtlety that should be understood by everyone in the body. It is a broad subject, and it reveals itself in the website we are discussing.

I'd like to start by saying that I appreciate that both Jon and Courtney are being cautious before jumping on any bandwagons. I'm glad I get an opportunity to respond to their concerns directly.

Courtney: You are absolutely right that we are young and lack credibility. We don't presume to instruct those older than us and we wouldn't even presume to instruct our peers without the oversight and blessing of our parents and many other older and wiser men and women of God.

Jon: You described the attitude of The Rebelution as follows: "Take pride in your youthfulness, you can do better than the people who came before you, they failed and you won't because you're young enough to know better...this is the ideal of 70's punk youth culture."

Of anything shared this grieved my heart the most. This is the impression Alex and I most wanted to avoid. Fortunately, I can say that I've never seen this attitude in a single "rebelutionary" on our website or at our conferences.

You see, our message is the opposite of "youth movements" in the past. We're not rebelling against God-established authorities like parents/adults, church, or government. Our uprising is against a cultural mind-set that twists the purpose and potential of the teen years and threatens to cripple our generation. We're rebelling against rebellion.

In our book, at our conferences, and on our website we encourage young people not to reject the wisdom and life experience of past generations -- that is one of the most destructive low expectations our culture has of teens.

In regards to the use of 1 Timothy 4:12, I believe you may find the following sermon helpful. It was delivered by John Piper of Desiring God Ministries and Bethlehem Baptist Church. The link below features the excerpt most pertinent to your concerns:

http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2008/04/john-piper-let-no-one-despise-you-for-your-youth/

Thank you both, again, for sharing your concerns. I sincerely pray that as you get more familiar with our message those concerns will be alleviated.

In Christ Alone,
Brett Harris

Jon,
Go back and read what it says,
And yet other generations have wanted to reach out and have been ineffective--even hurting their own cause through incompetence. Scores of Christian filmmakers, authors, politicians, businesspeople, artist, pastors, and leaders have failed miserably despite good intentions.
We still have confidence
It's more of an even though...others have failed, we still have confidence, because we see kids who are willing to TRAIN themselves to be a difference.

I shall give you this from the book as well:

The attitude with which you take a stand says just as much as the stand itself. People who always seem to be looking for a fight, who treat those who disagree with them with contempt, or who take a stand out of anger or retaliation cause more harm than good. We can (and must) stand boldly-even forcefully if he situation requires it- but our standing should always be done with humility.

Jon, I believe (and I have attended the conference and have read the book), that the verse was an is meant exactly as the Bible intended it. I don't believe the website or the brothers have implied anything else.
I'm not sure what is wrong with the "advertising" of the Rebelution, or what the concern is over that? Did you read the history of the Rebelution, how it came into existence, have you fully researched and evaluated it, or are you basing all of your comments on a quick overview of the site? Have you learned how God called the boys to task when they were just 16? How they were invited to apply for an internship at the Alabama Supreme Court? (They are from Portland) How Justice Parker agreed to waive the usual age requirement for interns and how they were actually chosen out of a group of applicants who were all older and primarily law students. Have you read about all that they were able to accomplish during the two months that they interned? Or how they were invited back to Alabama to serve as grass-roots directors for four simultaneous statewide campaigns for Alabama Supreme Court? How they recruited for those campaigns teenagers around the state? Ability, not age, determined who was recruited.
I believe God was not only grooming them for leadership, but equipping them for even a greater purpose, to begin the Rebelution. To encourage like-minded teenagers, especially those who have felt the oppression of their culture which would try to define them as 'typical teens' not really capable of making any significant contributions.
To reduce such an effort to a mere 'marketing gimmick' is disheartening to say the least, but I think, getting back to Lori's original post, not entirely surprising.
As you can tell, this particular topic has most certainly struck a chord with me as well as our family. Our kids are excited about an online community of like-minded individuals who are searching for ways to make a difference, to do more, to be more. A place where modesty is encouraged by both both girl and boy teens. I find nothing on the site that would suggest that they view others who oppose what they do as judgemental. The Harris brothers are known personally by Dave Smith, who is teaching Katie's Bible interpretation class. Rob Teigen has had an opportunity to visit their church and visit with their family. At 19 they exhibit, humbleness and integrity.
I hope you will invest a little more time to look beyond what you see as punk philosophy applied to Christianity.

I would agree that the verse is an encouragement. But, we must plainly acknowledge that by adopting it as a catch phrase for something adopting revolutionary ideals, the verse then gets laden with revolutionary tones as well, when taken away from the context of the book of timothy, and becomes the prooftext for a rebelution. This is why the connotation exists; they have taken a verse with "youth" in it and then made statements on their web site, and in the quote that you mentioned earlier, about people before THEM failing, and adding revolution to the title of their message. This is just punk philosophy applied to Christianity. (i.e. take pride in your youthfulness, you can do better than the people who came before you, they failed and you won't because you're young enough to know better...this is the ideal of 70's punk youth culture)
It is in this way that the verse is taken out of context. the verse is not about youth at all, it is about humility. but, when it is attached to a youth movement, it then becomes propaganda text and no longer carries ONLY its real meaning. it also implies that those who would look down are judgemental or narrowminded.
In the same way if I said, "you look nice today," you might take it as a compliment. However, if I add a sarcastic tone to my voice, you might take it as an insult. By placing a verse from the bible that happens to have the word "youth" in it onto the front page of a youth movement/revolution web site the text inherits the "sarcastic tone(so to speak)" of youth culture, it inherits the implication of youthful defiance of the status quo, and if you oppose it, you are "judging" or looking down on a good thing.
I want to reiterate that i'm not calling them bad boys or criticizing their message. They have some very important encouragements for young people. and i think it's cool that they had kids running the show. that would've been awesome for me at 14 to run a soundboard for a conference like that. but i do think it's important for kids learning from this stuff to know how even the advertising works as well, and i think the kids running it do.

Jon, you may also have enjoyed the 'guest speaker' their father, Gregg, who quite literally put the challenge out to the fathers in the room to be the spiritual head of the household, to be the first biblical authority their children should come to.
Could you explain how you see the verse as being taken out of context?

on the other there is an implication that if you question them, you are "despising" them.

Jon, I believe this is a misinterpretation of what they are saying. It is more along the lines of not being intimidated by your youthfulness or what others think. It is an encouragement to show others through your actions that although in years you may be young, in your Godly life you are mature.

Responding to this portion of Courtney's post "Please correct me if I'm wrong, but after having examined the website and information on the authors, I was surprised to find out that they themselves are only 19 years old. On the one hand they can be applauded for having some wisdom beyond their years.

This statement actually supports what The Harris brothers have to say about our culture. You, Courtney, were surprised to find out that the authors were only 19 years old, as if that somehow negates what they are capable of.
Your statement that they have some wisdom beyond their years suggests that you believe that somehow these two teens have something that is generally achieved at an older age. Why is that so? I believe if we were to go back through history we might find that the accomplishments and wisdom of these two was more of the norm than the exception at 19.
You might also be surprised to know that the entire conference was put on by teenagers. All the way down to the persons running the cameras. The maintenance of the website, the photography, the graphics, all teenagers and many younger than 19!
They all take to heart 1Timothy4:12 : "Don't let others look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers, in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity."
I wish I could have said I had that verse memorized, but I had to ask for help from my 12 year old son, who quoted it from memory while working on the html code for his personal website, after just finishing editing a movie for his 16 year old sister, who is busy herself studying for her Bible Interpretation class being taught by former EBF pastor Dave Smith. When she's finished with that she'll be going over the bible lessons and activities for this Sunday's kindergarten class which she teaches with fellow teen, Brian Keebler.

Courtney, my kids are 'ACTUAL" teens. Well at least one is, the other won't be until October. They would not know what you mean by "language of our culture", and I'm not sure I do either. But they do know how to serve not only in their church, in their community and their family. They know that in order to speak intelligently about the Bible, they must be immersed in it as well as seek out Godly counsel to assist them as they need.

I applaud the Harris twins, whose father Gregg, has long been a proponent and encouragement to other home-schooling families. Whose older siblings lead by example. Whose brother Josh, himself an author, spoke out against the pitfalls of casual dating, in his book "I kissed dating Goodbye".

Finally to the statement: We can't expect ACTUAL teenagers to possibly know all the subtleties of our complex society... enough to start a "rebelution" anyway.
I would say, "Yes, we can because THEY can!"