Tracy's thoughts

You are correct about my intentions, Dusty. I was only trying to use the same quote we started with to make a point, which can be a confusing thing if one is not careful. :)

In regard to hypocrisy, I'm fairly confident all of us are hypocrites to one degree or another -- probably on a daily basis, too. But what I hope we as Christians value is how we respond to our realized hypocrisy (acknowledging that we probably don't even know the extent of our hypocrisy!). Are we willing to admit we are wrong and change with Jesus' help?

BTW, Dusty, I think you're pretty cool -- but don't let it go to your head!

That was a great succession of blogs. I really liked reading those.
I like when walls come down like Eric's cousin. That's cool.

I would only clarify for the sake of emphasis (because I'm confident Tracy intended this), that we should not just give people cause to think of us as real people who admit faults and repent, but that foremost we should actually BE real people who admit faults and repent... the cause will take care of itself.

It just seems important to always beware of cleaning the outside of the dish. I think that's the leaven we're to beware of... hypocricy (acting).

That is the basis for what I was reacting to in the initial blog.

Believe it or not, I have found myself trying to act real. Yes... act real... sad, but it can be done... and it is for the same end as any other acting...ie, for people to think more highly of me than they ought.

Eric, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Let me further gray up the issue...if we error (or should I say when) the error needs to be made on the end of loving the other person and pointing them to Christ. One would argue that cussing and having a beer is not pointing another toward Christ. On paper it may seem this way, but ...

I had the opportunity to spend some time with my cousin whom I haven't seen in years. She knows of my past and cannot believe that I became a pastor. She has had some tough times and is sour to anything religious.
She was intrigued and a bit critical as to how I became a pastor. She invited me to have a glass of wine with her (maybe giving me a little test) to her surprise I said "sure", had a glass of wine and had a conversation laced with a few damns and hells my speech. During the conversation we discovered that we felt the same way about religion, we both can't stand it. Then I was able to share that Jesus felt the same way she did about religion. She was suddenly a lot less critical. We had many more conversations about Jesus that weekend, all because of a strategic (I know some of you will have a problem with that word) a glass of wine one night, a beer the next(in a bar of all places), and the spouting off of a few cuss words.

Many would say that I may have done more damage than good. To that I say, religion has done the damage, and if I would not have had a drink with her or said those words, she would have seen me as the same thing... religious. Others would see this as an invitation to have drunken Jesus talks, to that I say, grow up.

All I know, is that by the end of the weekend, she felt it was so ironic that her "pastor" cousin seems to be the only one that gets her and loves her unconditionally.

I do, or at least try. And hopefully one day she will know and experience the fact that Jesus actually does.

Interesting thoughts. I'll add a little more of my struggles here. I can agree that our lives should be moving toward "impure and unclean," but to believe that we have arrived this side of Heaven is scary. In fact in my own experience I know it leads to pride and self-righteousness.

What I find more appealing is that as Christians we need to ensure that we give others cause to think of us as real people who admit and repent of faults and love others. Does this mean drinking a beer and using certain language is then acceptable? Hmmmm...good question. I'm not convinced that question has a black-and-white answer. I do know that loving people usually manifests itself when we find ways to truly care for the people around us and through sincere apologies.

What does this have to do with a potty-mouth pastor? For me it means I don't desire having my kids swear to make a point, but I do want them to discern a person's heart and not get wrapped up in external issues. I'll let Jesus be the one to convict them on the nitty-gritty.

Is the occasional, intentional swear word "ok?" I'll let you decide that one...


BTW, Courtney, you are sooo post-modern.

I find it interesting that when we talk about our use of "language" that it almost always refers to that which is thought to be vulgar (I'll let you pick your favorite dirty word as an example). What might be novel to bring to the table in regards to this, is the way Christians use language that puts it's culture against the "worldly". Language that reiterates the idea of an "other" (to use a term from sociology, history, philosophy), that assumes and declares people helpless in my mind is more troublesome. For instance, Grudem quoted Piper:

"Someone might argue that not wearing deodorant or wearing dirty clothes are not morally wrong things in themselves, but my response is that they do give needless offense and cause others to think of us as somewhat impure or unclean. So, I think, does using words commonly thought to be 'obscene' or 'offensive' or 'vulgar' in the culture generally. Plus it encourages others to act in the same way. So in that way it brings reproach on the church and the gospel."

As Dusty pointed out, the idea that we are not "unclean" already is at the root of the "us against them" mentality. To say as Grudem does that vulgar language does give offense confuses who is at stake in the witness. It really only offends believers, and only certain groups at that. I would argue that it doesn't offend nearly as many unbelievers as most Christians would like to think (unless it is used in a demonstrative and unnecessarily over the top and disgusting manner). To put oneself in such a high and mighty position over the use of "ass" is childish and petty. And finally, to say that using "obscene" language "encourages others to do so" is an ignorant and condescending thing to say. If a person cannot think for him/herself then you are already at a loss when they are faced with the question and decision toward eternity. It seems the author is trying to make the point of causing someone to stumble, but we are not talking about having a drink around a friend who struggles with alcoholism. Maybe this is a subtle difference, but our existence is made up of subtle differences. If we don't learn to navigate them then we end up making extreme, sweeping generalizations... enter Pat Robertson.
Last night I caught 30 seconds of his show and I heard him put political activism, protest marching, and homosexuality all in the same category of things God will forgive you for. There was context for his comments but he spoke of those things off-handedly as equal.
When I was playing drums for a certain band I won't name, the first album they recorded was banned from some baptist bookstores because they used the words "sucked" and "butt". That leads to a different subject altogether but the point is the amount of effort put into purifying something that is not impure to begin with. One could argue that many of these arguments and acts of apology come down to commerce masquerading as morality. The album would not sell to the intended client base because of said language. Are those words going to prevent the listener from hearing "God's message"? Well that assumes there was a soul saving intention in the lyrics to begin with. Which leads to the assumption of how the music is supposed to be which leads to... Anyway...

The era we live in requires more attention to how language is used, otherwise we get hung up on the assumption of meanings by large groups. And before anyone throws a fit and screams "Post-Modernist" while pointing fingers at me let me say "Sorry, that's just the way it is." Language changes and meanings are not universal and don't always mean the same thing in every situation or even to every person. Meanings have to be agreed upon and that takes vigilance and a commitment to understanding those we are speaking with. Anyone who is married has already lived through disagreements over meanings and the necessity in remaining open to the other persons intentions.

I've now spiraled off... Dammit.

Oops, Was that immature and obscene?

That same line jumped out at me Dusty.

While I enjoyed reading the articles and certainly side with one more than the other... Reading stuff like this confuses me about my calling.

I've been trying to learn how to truly love people, and be honest with myself, and I read something like that and I could see myself getting more preoccupied with whether I use profanity, than loving people.

One sentence jumped off the screen when I read it, and I couldn't leave it alone...

"As Christians we need to ensure that we do not give others cause to think of us as impure and unclean."

I was surprised to read that.

I think the gospel message is that we ARE impure and unclean and we need God's mercy. And thanks to Jesus, we will one day find ourselves pure and clean... somewhere in a different place.

Anyway, thanks for the blog Tracy, it is interesting to see what goes on out there.